Recently a question was asked "how many people die from alternative medicine?
A website called "whats the Harm" which calls itself a consumer advocacy site but bases all its info anecdotally on the malpractice and misadventures of practitioners found just a few cases of deaths over a 15 year period and 3 continents.
At the same time in that 15 years, in 3 continents, millions have died from adverse drug reactions, many more have died from infections in hospital, others from surgery that went wrong.
I'm constantly asked to provide statistics to prove there are very few deaths.
i did a search on google:
Deaths directly attributed to alternative medicine
http://www.google.co.nz/#hl=en&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=667&q=deaths+directly+attributed+to+alternative+medicine&oq=deaths+directly+attributed+to+alternative+medicine&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1895l18411l0l62l56l6l40l46l0l509l1787l3-1.2.1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=43bf0a35501536f2
The first page was full of hearsay, anecdotal reports and a few isolated cases of people that may have got hurt from altmed but no actual statistics.
Could this be because very few people actually do get hurt and it is actually a very rare occurance when you take into account the number of people that do use our services?
I can easily find stats showing how many people die from drug reactions every year. From this risk can be calculated so "evidence" can show it is dangerous or not.
If anyone has some actual stats for people that die directly after altmed treatment can they please supply them because I can't find any. I've a strong suspicion I can't find any because very few people actually do die. I am not expected to kill or seriously injure any patient in my whole career as an osteopath. my insurance premiums reflect this.
When a group that doesn't try very hard to hide it wants to stop us practicing can only come up with a handful of deaths or serious injuries is it fair to say "Actually they don't happen very often at all from Altmed"?
We are also labeled as unregulated. Thats also not correct. Many of our professions are regulated directly by governments. In NZ anyone who provides healthcare and is not directly regulated by a body comes under the banner of the HDC who will step in and investigate a practitioner who provides healthcare.
Isn't it time for the lies about us from the health bigots to stop?
Ok Wiese, you've moved on from sayingaltmed is dangerous because there isn't a shred of evidence to Altmed does nothing.....
Our patients will be our judge not someone who refuses to acknowledge that something not approved by a university has any validity. Bath in your ignorance mate.
Moby oh Moby...... The only thing i agree on is your stace on regulation. I don't know a single chiro or osteopath that advises drinking bleach. Why? because we trained for a long time and learn't all about A&P just like the docs do! No one should provide healthcare to the public unless they are a registered / Regulated primary care practitioner or cleared to do so by one.
You are a bigot but the most dangerous thing about you is you don't know it. Even though you don't have any evidence that altmed is dangerous and all your postulations are anecdotal you still insist it is.
That isn't just ignorant, thats bigotry.
Weise, you've just gone to prove that when you've got nothing you resort to insults. No matter how well trained we are, no matter how well regulated, no matter how safe you still try and tell us we are dangerous or don't do anything.
NB. Do you criticise surgeons or Psychiatrists. They don't have a great deal of RCT's either. Happy to take their word for it are you? Why can't you take our's then? Thats BIGOTRY.
Now Gary, I throwing the ball back in your court. SHOW ME ALTMED IS DANGEROUS. No anecdotes please, FACTS.
Rhianna, it is you who do not understand. When doctors go on strike the death rate drops.
Conventional medicine is good for critical illness and emergency care but rubbish at treating chronic conditions.
All they can do to manage it is prescribe drugs which have side effects.
People do die and become very ill as a result of taking drugs long term for these conditions.
In the Same period where 20 people died or got injured or killed from Osteopathic intervention in 3 continents, millions of people have died from drug reactions, infections, surgical blunders, misadventure etc. YOU HAVE NO PLACE LABELING US UNSAFE. REMEMBER THAT.
Please don't anyone report these negative answers. They might not be able to see what they are but everyone else can.
JLI,This isn't evidence at all. These studies show that people die if they don't have radiation therapy or chemotherapy for a type of cancer where this treatment protocol works well. It does not show that alternative medicine accelerated or caused their death. If they had done nothing at all they would have died. For many cancers whatever the patient does they will die.
Evidence would be something like "HVT caused Liver failure in that healthy patient who subsequently died."
Rhianna, Whats the harm has lots of other Therapy's on its list. in the Same period over 3 continents there are very few cases of death or serious injury as well. Far lower than your lot manage.
thrawn323
define alternative medicine
Mr E
it's just a distraction used by conventional medicine's supporters to hide it's own dismal record.
hailfeal
I agree fully. most people I know depend on alt med rather than prescribed. I have a pretty evil cold right now (I had a tooth pulled so I had to take antibiotics which I'm convinced trashed my immune system) so all last week I was taking OTC cold drugs to cope with being sick while at work. This weekend I was super sick it hit me double than what it started. I ditched the drugs and started oil of oregano with a eucalyptus stream treatment...much better. During this sickness I learned that cold drugs prolong illness. Never use those again. Another pharm vs. alt medicine example: I've had acne problems for like 10 years. Been on antibiotics (they kinda worked but I had to get liver tested), prescribed creams and lotions (trashed my skin and didn't really work) and was finally prescribed Acutane. Instead of filling my prescription I looked up natural remedies and found the cure for my skin. At about 5 bucks a bottle with the only side effect being a temporary terrible smell...Witch Hazel! I couldn't believe something so simple and natural could work better than over priced prescribed garbage. Anyway, I do wish that there was a way to overcome the popular demand for Pharma drugs. They do more bad than good and in most cases there is a cheaper, safer cure. We have naturalpath docs here in BC that are regulated ND doctors but their care is not included in our "free" medical, but it is slowly becoming more mainstream. Word of mouth.
Lyn
I often rely on alternative medicine (especially Chinese) for my ailments. Since I moved to Australia -these remedies are often impossible to find.
I have this coughing spasms whenever I get a flu that won't go away. My GP even prescribed steroid last year but nothing works. The only thing that works is a chinese cough medicine that I've run out and am waiting for a friend who's coming over to bring me some next week.
I've been coughing for 3 weeks - on antibiotics, strongest cough medicine plus ventolin which only gives me some relief.
Weise Ente
Given that alternative medicine pretty much always does absolutely nothing (and you or anyone else has never given any data to challenge that fact), the only way it can kill anyone is by making them avoid actual treatment.
When that happens, they don't technically die of alternative medicine. They died of their cancer that could have been treated. How exactly are you supposed to get that data since it isn't reported?
Most of the claims about regulation are from the US, where alternative medicine operates with almost no regulation.
Edit: You are one of the slimiest, most dishonest people I've ever had the displeasure of interacting with.
You just admitted you don't have a scrap of evidence alt. med. does a damn thing, and you still think it isn't potentially harmful?
"For example, on the homeopathy argument"
And anyone who attempts to defend homeopathy deserves nothing but derision.
You don't want to be ridiculed, stop defending nonsense.
Edit: The problem is there is no regulation in the states. You seem to be forgetting most of the people you are arguing with aren't in New Zealand.
If you actually cared about reality, you'd stop protecting nonsense like homeopathy. That fact you still tentatively support it shows you quite simply don't care.
I've long ago stopped providing evidence to you. You always just ignored it.
Gary Y
False analogy. Alternative medicine is an alternative TO medicine. Medicine that works is simply medicine. You aren't comparing apples with apples.
The reason you can't find stats for deaths due to alt med is because alt med IS mostly unregulated and uncontrolled. ANYONE can practice alt med, and people so often self treat, often based on advice taken off websites like Yahoo Answers. People here offer appalling advice, like drinking industrial bleach can cure cancer. HELLO.
In the question you refer to I linked to whatstheharm.net, and I made it clear it is mainly anecdotal. Perhaps if proper regulation were in place and you got valid stats together, then people would not have to resort to anecdotal websites to assess the risks of alt med.
I pester you for evidence because you make bold claims like "There are no stats on the number of deaths from altmed because there are simply too few cases in order to compile any", without a jot of supporting evidence, even when pressed. Clearly you are stretching the truth.
Warning people about potential risks is NOT lying. And asking for evidence is is NOT bigoted.
So yes it's absolutely fair to warn that alt med is dangerous, and risky.
-------
EDIT: @Theresa, baby Gloria Thomas died because her parents refused proper medical treatment for eczema - which is treatable - and instead ignored all warnings and stuck with homeopathy. The homeopathic treatment was the same as NOT treating her at all and yes, she suffered malnutrition, septicemia in her left eye - her cornea melted, due to the eczema. She suffered a long and horrible death all because of a blind faith belief in a BS treatment (which is promoted here constantly) and her parents are now where they belong. JAIL.
I will "harp" on about this until you cranks get the message - at least this much is owed to Gloria. Wake up to yourself.
Theresa
Good question ;-)
A broad, unfounded generalisation is fine if you're supporting conventional medicine but siigns of insanity, ignorance, lack of education, etc if you are supporting alt med. Of course, we're all fooled by that clever trick.
There are a lot of tricks and mamnipulations that they use to present answers that are for conventional medicine and against alternative. Even those who analyse for dialectic do underhanded things such as putting an "s" in front of "CAM".
They lump anything that is not conventional medicine in with general treatments such as osteopathy, acupuncture and the like and use the babyish term of "woo". A deliberate attempt to contaminate the pool.
Even those who like to think they stick to facts are biased in terms of what they accept and don't, and perhaps even what they see when they read the evidence. For example, on the homeopathy argument, one person harps on about a very young child who supposedly died because she was treated with homeopathy rather then conventional medicine. He failed to read/ignored the coroner's finding of death from malnutrition.
I still think it's hilarious that YA has "medicine" under "Science" and alt med, dentistry, optical and diseases and conditions under "Health".
Anybody who is taking in the scope of answers and their overall bent cannot fail to see that very few people actually present anything like a balanced perspective. Most people are polarised and most people are biased. This creates conscious and unconscious filters. Of course it's always easier to see someone else's bias than your own ;-) But those who invoke the word "science" in the same way that evangelists invoke "God" and claim lack of bias because they have "evidence" and "facts", just don't get the power of these things to influence.
EDIT - Gary, the coroner said malnutrition that extreme in usually only seen in the third world and that was the cause of death. The homeopathy was a side issue. The family wasn't against conventional medicine - the mother went to hospital for her health - they were criminally neglectful parents. You read until you found what you wanted, and then you stopped, therefore missing the entire picture. But thanks for proving my point about the bias and filters!
Psychobenzaprine
Yes, it's fair.
When people eschew chemotherapy because some homopathic quackjob on the Internet convinces them that they can get the same (strike that- *better*) results from drinking petrified porcupine piss, they're giving up their only possible shot at survival. THAT'S harmful.
And no amount of lame turn-the-table attempts on behalf of the quackjobs is ever going to change that.
thenoseknows
Of course it's not fair, and it's completely without foundation.
People who are on this anti-alt-med kick are not playing with a full deck and don't have any scruples about their tactics of misrepresentation. When someone doesn't go along with them they resort to petty name calling.
Rhianna does Medicine Year 1
I assume this is in relation to this question? http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Am_dMzHi_CUYgU5vYlxh643ty6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20110524115832AAVVnwa
You don't understand.
The main harm from alt.med comes from using it instead of actual medicine. Ex. An asthmatic using homeopathy aka placebo pills, instead of their bronchial dilator could prove fatal. Homeopathy won't open their airways, but if they died, they didn't die from homeopathy they died from an asthma attack....which could have been treated with real medicine.
That's the harm we are talking about. There's obviously no data for this. And while we are on the topic of data; the reason you know about death as a result of medical error is because our system is heavily regulated. Our data is available for all to see. Alt.med has no such data and this is the main reason there is scant information regarding safety.
If you're asking if alt.med causes harm directly, in most cases it does not because it's worthless and harmless for the exact same reason. Homeopathy cannot harm you directly because it contains no active ingredients and does not involve any physical manipulation. Reiki cannot harm you directly for the same reason, etc.
There have been cases of acupuncture causing infection and injury and there have been documented cases of herbals causing adverse reactions and even death. Ex. this PhD student suffered organ failure after taking herbals: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23463312-phd-student-dies-after-using-chinese-herbal-medicine-to-cure-upset-stomach.do
And claiming you are dishonest, when you are, is not an insult.
Edit: @ Sud: Homeopathy is utter nonsense. It will not treat an asthma attack and you've never presented any valid evidence to support your position. Ever. Instead you provide hominem attacks and other fallacious arguments,- the very opposite of evidence.
Edit: Again, to accurately assess the risks you have to the take the benefits into consideration too. Conventional medicine isn't without risk, but the benefits outweigh the risks in most cases. In short, the situation is worse without the drugs.
With alt.med there is little evidence of efficacy which just leaves you with the risks.
We mange chronic diseases very effectively. The majority of asthmatics live a symptom free life thanks to asthma drugs. Hypertension is effectively managed with anti-hypertensives, reducing the risk of other compilations such as kidney damage, eye damage, left ventricular hypertrophy and cerebrovascular events, etc.
Type 1 and 2 diabetes is managed with drugs, reducing the risk of a a plethora of health problems, prolonging and improving quality of life. To suggest we are rubbish at treating chronic health problems is completely inaccurate.
Once again, alt.med has never been demonstrated to alter the course of ANY specific disease entity. Deal with it. All you've succeeded in doing in this questing is affirming your quack status.
@ Sud: again, provide evidence instead of fallacy's please. Everything we know about the universe tells us it cannot work. You don't have to study homeopathy to know it's bunk.
And truthseeker likes to lie. WE does not need me to defend him but actually look at the link truthseeker is linking. Anyone who claims WE is back peddling based on that is dishonest or deluded.
Additionally, for those who haven't seen truthseeker's previous airings; he does nothing but insult WE in virtually every question/answer. Placing him on block would be entirely justified. You're attacking his character because you have no evidence to support your position.
Edit: And Lightining seems to be referring to mainly Osteopathy. What about other alt.med?
Orignal From: Tips: Is it fair to keep saying alternative medicine as dangerous or likely to cause death when there is no evidence?
Post a Comment